The Nature of General and Specific Commands
Commands come in two forms, generic commands and specific commands. Generic commands are considered generic for one simple reason, they do not specify any correct way of doing the thing commanded. The command can be carried out by any means necessary, as long as the one who was given the command fulfills it. Specific commands are quite different from generic commands. Specific commands specify the correct action that must be taken to fulfill the command. When a certain action is specified, every other action is prohibited by that specification. This principle is clearly seen in every aspect of human life where commands are issued from people in authority to those under that authority.
For example, when dining at a restaurant, you instruct (command) the server to bring you a soft drink. “Bring me a soft drink” is a command that is generic in nature. By stating you want a soft drink, the server can fulfill the command in any way he or she sees fit. She could bring you a Pepsi, a Mt. Dew, a Dr. Pepper, or any other soft drink and fulfill that command. However, you may wish, at the restaurant, to order a specific kind of soft drink. “Bring me a Sprite” is a command that is specific in nature. By stating you want a Sprite you have specified exactly what kind of soft drink you want. The only way the server can fulfill that command is by bringing the exact thing that was specified, a Sprite. If he brought you a Dr. Pepper or a Diet Sprite, the server would not have fulfilled the command. Furthermore, we understand that by specifying the exact thing that is wanted, everything else is prohibited. As the one ordering a Sprite, you do not have to say, “Bring me a Sprite, but not a Coke, nor a Dr. Pepper, or a Mt. Dew” and name every other soft drink served at that restaurant. Can you imaging the confusion if every person giving a specific command had to say what he or she wanted and then state everything that he or she did not want?
The principle is true when applied to the Bible as well. For example, Jesus gave his Apostles both generic and specific commands. In Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus tells his Apostles “Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” This statement by Jesus has both generic and specific commands. First, Jesus tells his Apostles to “Go ye therefore”. This statement is a command that is generic in nature. Jesus simply said to “Go”. He did not tell his Apostles how to go, just to go. The Apostles could have fulfilled this command any way in which they saw fit. They could have walked, ridden a horse or donkey, taken a chariot, or sailed in a ship. Any of these options would have fulfilled the generic command to “Go”. Jesus then tells his Apostles exactly what they were to do as they went. Jesus says, “Make disciples of all the nations”. This is a specific command. Jesus specifies exactly what he wants his Apostles to do when they “Go”. He specifies that they are to “make disciples”. This prohibits everything else. Would they have fulfilled Jesus’ commands if they went and made proselytes of all the nations? What if they made hunting club members of all the nations or any other such thing? By specifying “disciples” Jesus prohibits everything else.
Furthermore, Jesus tells his Apostles to “teach them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you”. This is another specific command given by Jesus. The Apostles were to “make disciples” by “teaching” to “all nations” everything that Jesus had taught them. If the Apostles were to teach “all nations” the teachings of the Greek Philosophers, they would not have fulfilled Jesus’ commands, for he specified, and thereby prohibited, everything else.
When Jesus initiated the Lord’s Supper in Matthew 26:26ff, he took both unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine and gave it to his Apostles. Paul likewise instructs Christians on what is to be used and when it is to be done in the book of First Corinthians chapter eleven. We see the specified ingredients in the Lord’s Supper and understand that what is specified is what is commanded; what is specified prohibits everything else. When both Jesus, as God on earth, and Paul, as an inspired Apostle, specify that unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine are to be used in the Lord’s Supper, everything else is prohibited. We cannot use peanut butter crackers and Dr. Pepper in the Lord’s Supper because the specified prohibits anything else that can possibly be eaten. To make the claim “They did not say not to use peanut butter crackers and Dr. Pepper” is to refuse to see the logic behind specific commands that we apply to every aspect of our physical lives.
If we understand this principle in our physical lives, why does it suddenly not apply to our spiritual lives? If someone were to order a pepperoni pizza from a pizza store, only to have it arrive with anchovies on it as well, would that someone just accept the pizza and pay for it even though the pizza store had not obeyed the command? Furthermore, how would you feel if you tried to return the pizza and the store employees said “You did not say not to put anchovies on your pizza! You will accept that pizza and like it because we made it for you in a sincere way.” Every single one of us would be outraged with that store and never go back. Yet people today daily tell God, “You did not say not to do it this way and you will accept this because of my sincerity!” We will not accept bad pizza from a pizza store that does not follow our commands, yet we expect God to accept anything we wish to give him, without following his commands! This ought not to be! Again I ask, why can we see this in everyday life, yet not apply it to God and his Holy Word in our worship to Him?
Jesus tells us that we are to worship the Father in spirit and in truth. In John 4:24 these words are recorded for us: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The Apostle Paul states in II Thessalonians 3:6 “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us.” Paul commands Christians, through the authority of “our Lord Jesus Christ”, that we follow in the traditions of the Apostles. In fact, if we do not follow in those traditions, we are to be withdrawn from. Paul the Apostle delivered, through inspiration, the tradition that we follow in worship to God in song. Paul states in Ephesians 5:19 “speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord.” This command from God is specific in nature. First, God tells us to “Speak one to another”. This is the first specific command. We see that our voices are to be used in this part of worship. What do we speak, any old thing? No, because we are given another specific command; “in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs”. These three things are specified, thereby limiting everything else. We do not speak patriotic songs, cartoon songs, or any other type of song. God then gives us more detail, “singing and making melody”. This command is both specific at first and then generic. The specific, which prohibits everything else, is to sing. We again must use the voice. We sing to God. The generic is “make melody”. The phrase “making melody” means to “cause to vibrate by touching, to twang,” (Thayer) and to “twitch or twang, that is, to play” (Strong). It is extremely important to notice that immediately following this generic command to “make melody” is a specific command on how that is to be done. God specifically commands that the instrument to be played is “the heart”. When God specified “with your hearts” he prohibited everything else that could be “caused to vibrate” or “twitched and twanged”. The specific command to “make melody with your heart” prohibits making melody with anything else.
Some people claim that singing “a cappella” is simply a church of Christ tradition. They are correct, it is a tradition handed down from the Apostle Paul to all Christians from the breath of God himself. God had specified, and we must therefore do that which is specified in order to be pleasing to him. Who can add to God’s specific command? Who can add to God’s specific command and then tell God, “You will be both pleased and ‘Glorified’ by my addition to your authorized, specified commands to your creation”? Let us “Obey God rather than men” as the Apostle Peter said in Acts 5:29. Let us not “hold fast the traditions of men” thereby “leave(ing) the commandment of God” as Jesus condemned in Mark 7:7-8. Let us never “reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition” Mark 7:9. Let us always “hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you” (I Corinthians 11:2) that we will always be pleasing to God.
Jesus once asked in Mark 11:30, “The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or from men? Answer me.” I ask the following question, “Instrumental music in Christian worship, is it from heaven, or from men? Answer me.”
Joshua D. Haley

51 Comments:
Great post Josh! You covered everything very thoroughly and you made it easy enough for a 2nd grader to understand.
April 30, 2005 7:06 PM
I would like to add that the tradition of authorized worship was probably given by the 12 first before Paul wrote about it. Otherwise what would Christians have done before Paul??
May 01, 2005 6:43 AM
Outstanding.
May 02, 2005 5:00 PM
Josh wrote in part:
"We cannot use peanut butter crackers and Dr. Pepper in the Lord’s Supper because the specified prohibits anything else that can possibly be eaten. To make the claim “They did not say not to use peanut butter crackers and Dr. Pepper” is to refuse to see the logic behind specific commands that we apply to every aspect of our physical lives."
==========
This is absolutely kindergarten stuff in the "real" world, but people seem to jump ship when it comes to matters of the faith.
If I send my son to the store with a $5 bill and tell him to buy a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, he knows what to get.
He will buy a 1 lb. loaf of white bread and a 1 gallon jug of white 2% milk. Why? Because this is the pattern of our buying. He has seen it many times before. Only by stating something different would he vary and buy whole wheat bread or chocolate milk.
He is not at liberty to spend the money on anything else. But I do not have to tell him this...it is understood. I also do not have to list all 40,000 other grocery items NOT to buy.
My list was specific and therefore limited. To purchase more, less, or other than what was requested is to be disobedient.
Children know this...adults know this...yet some want to ignore it when it comes to the highest authority in the Universe... God!
WOW! talk about presumptuous.
May 02, 2005 6:51 PM
I hate that the "the Bible doesn't say not too" philosophy has crept into the Church today.
It's amazing when you read the Bible at face value, how much you can learn!
It's depressing that so many interject their own opinion into the Bible to make justifications and make themselves feel good.
May 02, 2005 6:57 PM
It's amazing to me how people within the denomination of the Church of Christ "speak" where the Bible does not speak. Or make laws where the Bible does not make laws. (i.e. instrumental music being a sin, saying that we are COMMANDED to meet on the first day of the week, etc.) I have a couple of passages for you. If you think you are saved by works that you do, you are gravely mistaken, and your souls are in jeopardy. The ONLY WAY we are saved is through the grace and mercy of God. If God did not grant his grace upon us, we would be lost. If you think you can be saved based on acts that YOU do and make judgments on other Christians who are trying to live their lives faithfully, read Galatians 5, as well as Matthew 7:2. I think these passages of Scripture speak clearly on how people on this blog have often criticized and judged others. And please, Brant, let's refrain from using phrases such as "liberal weaklings" and other deragotory and divisive terms. Jesus did speak harshly at times, but he spoke out of LOVE and KINDNESS much more. Let's follow Christ's example, shall we?
Oh, and those who DO use instruments in worship services do NOT preach another gospel, as some have accused them of. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOSPEL: THE DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESSURECTION OF JESUS CHRIST! Most denominations that use instruments preach this! They are not preaching another gospel. They preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope everyone understands this. God bless you all in further reading and understanding of the Scripture. God knows NONE of us have the Bible figured out completely.
May 02, 2005 11:29 PM
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ" Col. 2:8
"Therefore, brethren, standfast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." 2 Thess. 2:15
"But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us."
The problem with those who use the instrument is they are following after the traditions of men and not after the traditions of the apostles. They are adding to the Word of God (Deut. 4:2; Deut 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Rev. 22:18-19). Those who do not use the instrument are not adding to God's Word they are merely doing what they have been commanded to do and nothing more. It is those who have brought the instrument into the church who have caused division because they have added to the Word and have brought something into worship that was never commanded of God under the New Covenant.
May 03, 2005 7:01 AM
My third Scripture reference is from 2 Thess. 3:6.
Sorry!
May 03, 2005 7:03 AM
Instruments do NOT add to God's Word. Instruments do not change the heart of worship. Adding to God's Word would mean that we are adding our own laws, such as saying things are okay that God specifically addresses as being wrong. Using instruments in worship is not a law, and those that use instruments do not treat it as a law. Not using instruments in worship services is not a law either. In fact, the only thing specified by God is to "sing" or to "sing in your hearts" which can most definitely be done with the accompaniment of instruments. Let's be careful to treat the New Testament has a written code of law, which is strictly forbidden in Galatians 5, as well as the first few chapters of Romans.
May 03, 2005 7:53 AM
Josh,
There is only one command in the "Great Commission", to make disciples. Everything else describes how to make the disciples. Go ye therefore, should be translated, as you are going....
May 03, 2005 8:14 AM
Seeking,
Galatians 5 is talking about THE law and not law in general. The New Testament is as much of a law as the Old.
Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
To say there is no law is to say there is no sin, then you have abolished the need for Christ.
May 03, 2005 11:13 AM
Red Bug,
A word being a participle does not hinder it from being a command. Jesus was commanding them how to make disciples.
May 03, 2005 11:16 AM
An honest question. Following the concept of command, example and inference, by what authority did early Jews begin using Synagogues? When Jesus began his ministry he seemed to approve of synagogues despite the absence of a command, example or inference.
May 03, 2005 11:38 AM
We never really find that Jesus "approved" of the synagogue. He did teach alot there, but why. He understood they were lost, not because they were in a synogogue but because they were in sin. This is why the apostles also taught there. Many times it is refered to as "their" synogogue whether that has significance I do not know. Bhuddist are not lost because they go to the Bhuddist temple, they are lost because they have sins that are not forgiven. We do not believe people are sinning because they are using an instrument but because they are doing that which God has not authorized. Authorization is the root of the problem, not the instrument.
May 03, 2005 12:29 PM
Also... the word synagogue is merely a meeting place... James refers to the Christians having them "your synagogue"(James 2:2 ASV). This word is also translated "assembly" in the KJV. So I guess we have authority for a church building, how bout that.
May 03, 2005 12:36 PM
I appreciate that. However, Luke says that Jesus went to the Synagogue, "as was his custom". The problem would not be the building, it would be the lack of authorization for such a meeting apart from the authorized practice of OT scripture. Was Jesus giving approval to a practice that was not authorized? Were they adding to the practice of the three major feasts in Jerusalem? God never authorizes worship in such a way outside of Jerusalem. Were they not going beyond what was authorized? If they were, how could Jesus take part in it "as was his custom". I'm asking because friends of mine have used this argument as a means to suggest that our understanding of command, example and inference are too narrow. The synagogue was never commanded, given through example, or inference in the Old Testament. Yet, when Jesus came along, he met at the synagogue, "as was his custom".
May 03, 2005 1:08 PM
For those of you who are anti-acapella music and anti NT-example, consider this:
1) There is no example of an instrument being played in the NT church.
2) How can one sing and play an instrument at the same time? If you play a trumpet, tuba, clarinet, flute, oboe, trombone, or any other instument, are they defying the singing command?
3) Who is worship for? You or God? When we put God first, then it becomes clear. Worship is not about me and what I like. It's about God.
Imagine that.
May 03, 2005 1:12 PM
Your second argument sounds good unless a person plays a guitar, drums, symbols, tamborine etc. In such cases, it is possible to both sing and play these instruments.
May 03, 2005 1:14 PM
Ugh. Not that "why do we have a church building" debate again! God said meet- a general command. Having a meeting place (building, outside, rented place) fullfills that command.
God said sing. Singing fulfills that command. Play the piano does not.
Clear cut and dry.
May 03, 2005 1:15 PM
Anonymous,
You missed the point.
There is not one example of instruments being used in the NT church. Explain that.
Did Jesus play the triangle when he song a hymn with his disciples? Did Peter jam on his banjo? Did the other apostles have a drumline set up?
Nope. They song a hymn. It's not that difficult to grasp my friend.
May 03, 2005 1:17 PM
I'm afraid that one of the reasons we are loosing so many people is that they are honestly seaching for answers but in return they are getting treated as if they are stupid or insincere. My point is not to argue to to simply think through a valid question. I'm an not arguing church buildings or any such issue. My point is that God called Isralite men to meet in Jerusalem three times a year. Any meeting in any other place would appear to me to be going beyond what was authorized directly by God (to follow OUR general arguments). If not, why not?
May 03, 2005 1:21 PM
I don't think there is any command to meet in Jerusalem. We are commanded to meet though. We also have an example of when to meet.
May 03, 2005 1:27 PM
I am arguing pre-New Testament. I am asking about how the Jews would have applied the concept of command, example and inference to the actions of Jesus. Of course the New Testament church has an example (Acts 20:7) and an implicit command (1 Corinthians 16). But, as a pre-Christian Jew where is the command, example or inference that would give authorization for the use of Synagogue?
May 03, 2005 1:35 PM
The synagogue system developed during the Babylonian captivity and the silent years between Malachi and Matthew.
They were more social centers and educational institutions than "worship" centers.
They did not substitute the three pilgrim festivals to Jerusalem for this.
They did not offer up animal sacrifices.
In the earliest days of the synagogues it appears that they did not use instruments. They were reserved for the temple service only.
Synagogues were an expedient development to preserve the Jewish culture and way of life when they were away in captivity. It was an expedient tool to fulfill the command to teach the children all that God had commanded.
They and we are free to sing, pray, and study the Bible outside the assembled church.
May 03, 2005 1:58 PM
Jim Bob Duggins,
Well, my friend, there is a reason why many of the instruments were not played in the New Testament Church, and I'm going to have to say that the main reason is because they were not invented yet. Many of the instruments used to worship God today were not invented, but that doesn't mean they are wrong to use. You might think this is a foolish explanation, but think about it. What about microphones, or powerpoint slides, or podiums? Are these wrong to use too? You may say these are "tools" to spread God's Word, as I have heard by many in the Church of Christ. Well, my friend, so are instruments. Instruments do not ADD anything to the Word of God. Nothing. As long as we are either singing or "singing in our hearts" to God, we are obeying his command. And you CAN sing out loud, speak to one another, and sing in your heart to God while playing or listening to an instrument. Instruments are merely a tool to allow people to feel closer to God while they praise Him in their lives. And do not think you cannot praise God with the use of instruments, because David sure did in the OT, and was considered a "man after God's own heart."
Moving on, you are wrong in saying that the assemblies (Sunday morning worship services for example) are only for God. Worship assemblies are for OUR mutual edification. (Read 1 Corinthians 14:4-5, 1 Corinthians 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:11). Read anywhere in the NT and you will see that the assemblies were used to build each other up. Listen, God does not NEED our worship. He wants it, but He does not need a thing from us. Our worship is not essential to God's existence. Howeve, He wants our worship, so whichever way allows you to worship Him to the fullest without contradicting the commands He has given us, worship that way! Worshipping God is a great way to edify one another, because we realize we are all ONE church under Him. If you are edified by praising God with the accompaniment of instruments in a more wholesome and spiritual manner, then you should do whatever you can to worship God to the fullest. Remember, we should all use our gifts and talents that we have been given to glorify God (1 Peter 4:10). However, our WHOLE LIVES are to be worship to God, not just on Sundays. (Romans 12:1) People need to quit thinking that going to church on Sunday morning determines whether they are a Christian or not. It is their LIVES that determine whether they are a Christian or not, and that means not only Sundays, but Mondays - Saturdays as well.
By the way, if the Church of Christ is soooooooo much like the NT church, read 1 Corinthians 14 and indulge me as to how the Church of Christ follows those commands and examples. (speaking in tongues, prophesying..) I don't see any similarity to the NT church and the Church of Christ in this passage of Scripture.
Or, if we are "commanded by example," why are we not taking the Lord's Supper in an Upper Room every time, or not drinking wine instead of grape juice (despite how some justify this, grape juice and wine are NOT the same thing). If you want to follow the example of the NT church, why are we not meeting DAILY? (Acts 2:46-47).
Just a few thoughts to consider.
May 03, 2005 2:43 PM
To Seeking the Truth
Please remember that Ephesians 5:19 tells Christians to "make melody" in their hearts, not necessarily to "sing in their hearts". "Make Melody" means 'to cause to vibrate, twitch or twang'. God told us what to make melody with, it is the heart. To make melody with anything else does in fact add to God's authorized system of worship. You cannot claim that it does not add without offering evidence for us to consider.
Thank you.
May 04, 2005 10:00 AM
Seeking the truth
Seeing that in commands to sing we are told to, 1)speak 2)sing 3)admonish and 4) teach- the piano (or anyother instrument) cannot do any of those things. Were powerpoint and all your other examples can be used to teach, instruments solely make noise, when was the last time you listened to a piano and learn mathematics? Yet you can look at a powerpoint pres. and LEARN mathematics. See the difference?
Also note that the 'fruit of the vine' as is authorized in both Matt 26 and I Cor. 11 are simply grape juice, not wine. If you Bible says wine, simply look in any Greek concordance and it will tell you that wine is put in place for many Greek words, glucose, oinos, fructose, etc.(Don't have my Greek Concordance, so I don't know if I spelled, got all, of these right.)
Also, In order to understand I cor. 14, you need to read I Cor. 13. The Bible teaches that miraculous gifts can only be given by an Apostles hand, (Acts 8, 19, I Tim. etc.) and they will cease when the 'perfect thing' comes. Miracles at the hands of men have ceased, else there are some 2000 year old apostles walking around AND the 'perfect thing' (the Bible from the context) is not yet here and complete. (Both are wrong).
Just for your consideration.
May 04, 2005 10:08 AM
One thing I've noticed.
When the "conservative" side of an issue speaks up, they use scripture. When the "liberal" side makes a comment, they use reasoning and human logic to make a point. They don't support their own thoughts but try to attack the other thought.
For example - instrumental music. Instruments hadn't been invented yet. Oh okay, that's why they didn't use them. So it must be okay for us to now.
Instruments were not used in the NT church because there was no need to. They knew to "Sing and make music with their heart" as the scripture commands. Not because they didn't have them invented yet.
Another - If we can't use instruments, why do we have podiums, pews, carpet, toilet paper, lightbulbs, drinking water, blah, blah, blah. These things fall under the "meet" command.
Another - God didn't say we couldn't do that. Okay. God didn't say we could use salsa dip with the bread during the Lord's Supper, so it must be okay, right? How about some rotel dip?Didn't Jesus dip His bread?
I apologize for my sarcastic tone. It's ridiculous that we have to stand up for the truth even with those who call themselves members of the Church of Christ.
May 04, 2005 10:54 AM
It's ridiculous that "liberal" people are always accused of not using Scripture to support their points. Please read my earlier posts again and you will see Scripture being used. Using instruments is not adding to the God's law at all. In fact, singing with the accompaniment of instruments still falls under the command to "sing," just like you feel that using a church building and all of its utilities falls under the command to "meet." If you're going to use your logic about us being allowed to use a church building, then I will use your SAME exact logic to prove we can use instruments to worship God. I can't believe people do not see that the argument used to refute instruments in worship is the same argument used to refute the use of a church building, or not taking the Lord's Supper in an Upper Room (example), or not meeting together DAILY as an assembly (example). Also, the First Century church did NOT know to just sing and make melody in their hearts, because they were still following the Old Law. They had no Bibles to prove their points from, or to look up Scripture from. Under the Old Law, was it okay to use instruments to worship God? Yes it was. And once again, I will point out that David did it. Now, I have another question to consider. If you talk so much about reading in context (which I completely agree with you, you cannot understand the Bible unless you read in context), tell me how you justify Col. 3:16-17 as well as Ephesians 5:19 as rules for how our Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night worship services should go. Aren't these passages in fact talking about how we are to live our LIVES as worship to God, but not "worship services" at all?
May 04, 2005 12:11 PM
seeking the truth stated, "Using instruments is not adding to the God's law at all."
Using instruments is adding to God's law and there are many passages that warn against this (Deut. 4:2; Deut. 12:32; Prov. 30:6; Rev. 22:18-19). Adding to God's Word is very serious because those who add place themselves on a level with God and think they know as much as God. There is no Biblical authority whatsoever for such an addition as instrumental music. We must have authority for what we do in worship (Matt. 21:25). It is up to those who want to use the instrument to prove that they have Biblical authority for such an addition. So far they have yet to do so.
We are told to worship in "spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Using a mechanical instrument of music in worship is not worshiping "in
spirit and in truth." Paul in Acts 17:24-25 stated "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is he worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." Why would someone want to spend the Lord's money on something as vain as a mechanical instrument when there are lost soul's still in the world? The truth is those who want to use the instrument are usually selfish and it is about what they want and not what God wants.
May 04, 2005 12:47 PM
Seeking the Truth wrote in part:
And do not think you cannot praise God with the use of instruments, because David sure did in the OT, and was considered a "man after God's own heart."
==================
To appeal to the OT for anything we are to do today as worship is to Judaize. One might as well bring over the incense, circumcision, sacrifices, etc.
And don't forget what Paul wrote:
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by [the] law; you have fallen from grace." -- Gal 5:4 (NKJV)
May 04, 2005 12:53 PM
Seeking the Truth
May 04, 2005 1:44 PM
Sorry,
Seeking the Truth
I apologize for the harshness of other writers when they answer your honest questions. We should keep this doctrinal, not personal.
An upper room, you say. First off, the upper room was not the place were God commanded us to partake of the Lords Supper (LS). They happened to do that upon occasion. This is why that example is not binding. We see in the N.T. Christians taking the LS in many places, in homes, in upper rooms, in rented assembly halls, in synagogues even. So this one example of the upper room does not matter.
Eph. 5:19 and Col.3:16-17 teach us how to act when we call upon God. The first day of the week assembly may or may not be in view, But Paul says, (more or less) "when you worship in song, do it This way." Therefore, whether it be sunday morning worship, wednesday night worship, at a bible study in your friends home on Thursday, WHENEVER, it doesn't matter. Worship (in song) according to the pattern. Whether in our LIVES, or in the first day of the week assembly.
Again, make melody with what? The heart! Not an instrument. This specifies. This prohibits making melody with anything else.
The Christians in Jerusalem met daily. Those in Ephesus met on the First day. Those in Galatian met whenever they could (besides the first day), Those in Corinth worshiped on the first day and then "whenever" else they came together. See, we must worship on the first day (read Johnny Hintons reasons for the first day of the week assemby-if not on this post, could Johnny republish those,)but other times are ok as well. The Daily of acts chapter 2 is not binding because the examples of meeting in the N.T. are not always Daily. But they are ALWAYS on the First day.
Follow me on this- The NT speaks of making melody with the heart. You want to make melody with the heart and the piano. How is this not adding to God's word? Please, reread the original post on this blog that speaks of general and specific commands. If you can find a problem with that logic, point it out, and hopfully the author will address it.
That is why you are not using the same logic as others are. Specific and generic commands. Examples only 'bind' (don't care for that word but) when EVERY example is the exact, identical same. If each city had a different example, then we as Christians simply fulfill the command as we see fit (nature of generic commands.)
Thanks for considering this.
May 04, 2005 1:56 PM
I guess if the OT is judiasm we should just throw it out of our bibles since we cant look to it at all.............and if instruments is are so wrong then you better not listen to the radio or anything that has instruments in it because Romans 12:1 said to offer our bodies as living sacrifices for this is our spiritual act of worship, so if our whole lives are worship, and if you say no instruments at all in "worship services" then you better keep the raido off. You all accuse liberals of having "bad logic to justify their beliefs" when you logic for which "commands" to follow and what is just good example is ridiculous. Pull the log out of your own eyes before you codemn me to hell for the plank in mine. You talk about wasting money on instruments instead of seeking the lost, how about the time all of you waste on here about stuff that is not going to get anyone to heaven instead of seeing to the work of the Lord in your own cities and your own lives. Or why waste money on a building when we could all meet in homes or other public places.....let's practice what we preach.
May 04, 2005 3:12 PM
I have considered all of the comments that have been made against instruments in worship, and I respectfully disagree with all of them. I am glad to know that those who think using instrumental accompaniment in worship is sinful are actually few and far between now days. It's because people realize there is no Scripture that tells us that using instruments are wrong in worshipping God. Not one. If those that write on this blog see it that way, then that is fine to have that opinion. But don't bind that opinion on me or the millions of others who use instrumental accompaniment in worship. Read Romans 14 if you want to know how to handle disputable matters within the church, and using instruments in worship is most definitely considered to be a disputable matter, wouldn't you say?
Johnny Hinton wrote:
"To appeal to the OT for anything we are to do today as worship is to Judaize."
Once again, I will disagree with you 100% on this. The OT was put in the Bible for us to learn from. What amazing faith the OT tells of when it talks about Abraham, Moses, and Noah. Oh, wait, I can't learn from their lives of WORSHIP because they are in the OT. You know what? I might as well just rip out all of the pages of the OT in my Bible, since it holds no relevance to us today. Sorry, but once again, I disagree with this viewpoint completely.
While I do not believe we live under Moses Law, we are to learn from it. Which is exactly what we are not doing when we treat the NT as the "new" Old Law. Galatians 5 is talking about the dangers of doing this. Yes, it uses Moses Law as the basis, but what Paul is saying is extremely relevant today, and the point is this. If you want to be justified by the law (that is, if you say your righteousness depends on how well you NEVER break the law), then you "fall from grace," which means you leave no grace for Jesus Christ in accounting for your sins. If you choose to rely on the grace of Jesus Christ, you no longer hold the position of being justified by law. And, there leaves room for error. If we fall, God's grace picks us up. If you are justified by law, the FIRST time you error, you are guilty of breaking the whole law. Pretty serious stuff.
I have written on this blog enough. I realize the conversations taking place are not helping anything, and the viewpoints expressed are usually derogatory in nature, and not expressed in love. I have better ways to glorify God and spread His Word besides writing on a blog. I am just glad you people are not the one's I will have to answer to, but only to God.
May 04, 2005 3:16 PM
Illogical indeed, to argue for the law of Moses and against Christ law. To hold up the law of Moses as my standard and practice for worship over the law Christ revealed is indeed derogatory.
May 04, 2005 3:29 PM
John Bellah,
(Seeking the Truth said:)
"While I do not believe we live under Moses Law, we are to learn from it."
(John Bellah said:)
"Illogical indeed, to argue for the law of Moses and against Christ law. To hold up the law of Moses as my standard and practice for worship over the law Christ revealed is indeed derogatory."
Please try not to take things I say out of context. You are in fact sinning when you twist my words, which would then satisfy as a lie. Don't spread lies. I wasn't saying to hold to Moses Law. I was saying that treating the New Testament as Moses Law (seeking salvation through the justification of law rather than the grace of God) is a dangerous position to be in, which is what many on this blog believe. To not refer to and learn from the OT is being foolish, and rejecting 2/3 of God's Word. As I said before, I do NOT, NOT, NOT believe we are under the Law of Moses anymore. We are under God's law, but God's law should definitely not be looked at as a set of rules we must keep to be saved. The New Testament allows us to see what is sin, and gives us guidelines as to how to live a closer life to God. Quit taking things out of context and spreading lies. That's derogatory and ridiculous, and most definitely, sinful.
May 04, 2005 4:04 PM
Seeking the truth,
Wrong.
It doesn't matter what people feel about instruments. God's word matters.
May 04, 2005 4:21 PM
"Seeking" the truth,
Who gave you authority to call someone sinful?
May 04, 2005 4:22 PM
Someone who spreads lies is sinning. Read the Bible.
Oh, I agree with you, it does not matter what people feel about instruments. It matters what God thinks about them. And since God did not speak against the use of instruments in worship, we are free to use them. Thank you.
May 04, 2005 4:27 PM
God doesn't say not to use tacos and Diet Coke for the lords supper either so we are free to use them too!!!
Good grief, read the post, you can't refute the logic.
May 04, 2005 6:41 PM
I'm done with this. I will rely on God's grace for my salvation, and you can rely on your justification through law. Thank God I will be judged by His standards, and not yours.
May 04, 2005 6:48 PM
Seeking the truth,
When you go to the law of MOses to justsify your practice in worship you are arguing for the Law of Moses. You can say you aren't all you want but the fact is you are basing your practice of worship from the Law, which you then say we aren't under. Which testament(will, covenent) are we to follow and model? We still learn great lessons from the Old testament. The New Testament plainly tells us who has authority, Christ, not David, not Moses.
May 04, 2005 6:52 PM
seeking the truth stated "It's because people realize there is no Scripture that tells us that using instruments are wrong in worshipping God. Not one."
Watch this! Here is the logic that seeking the truth and others in denominations use. Whatever is not specifically commanded as being wrong then I am permitted to do. As long as there is not a "thou shall not" it is OK. According to this logic it would be OK to sacrifice an animal in a worship service because the Bible never tells me not to. It would be OK to handle poisonous snakes in the worship service and pass them to small children because the Bible never tells me not to. It would be OK to give poison to the entire congregation because the Bible never tells me not too. It would be OK to give poison to an infant and if that infant died it would be OK because the Bible never tells me not to do that. I know these examples sound harsh but this is the conclusion of some of the logic that has been presented. If we can do whatever the Bible does not specfically condemn then that leaves the door open for almost anything.
P.S. If anyone was wondering about the snakes and poison it is found in Mark 16:18.
May 04, 2005 7:03 PM
Scott,
I appreciate your comments about the absurdity of the "it doesn't say we can't" hermeneutic.
This approach is extremely and utterly childish. My children try to play that game, yet knowing very well that it will not fly. Paul stated that when he was a child he reasoned as such, but when he became a man he put away childish things.
If God had to give every possible alternative he did not want instead of proactively stating what he did want...the Bible would be such an overwhelming tome that no one could read it all.
God treats us like adults with good sense. Everyone knows that the signs on the Interstate at the openings across the median...[Authorized Vehicles Only] mean what they say. They undestand that if they in their ordinary personal vehicle use that crossing they are at risk of being fined for a violation. Do we think that stating, "It didn't say I couldn't" would work with a judge?
That whole line of reasoning is a cop out for self-seeking justification.
May 04, 2005 7:32 PM
If an unsaved person stumbles across this blog, perhaps seeking for the truth....and they read these comments full of other 'christians' getting very personal and argumentative...
do you think it will draw them closer to the Savior or further away?
your convictions may differ from one another. that is something you will ALWAYS find..but why take this time to argue when you could take this time to share the gospel?
May 04, 2005 8:14 PM
Amen to that!
May 05, 2005 9:43 AM
http://gospelofchrist.blogspot.com/
May 05, 2005 10:38 AM
Passer wrote in part:
"...why take this time to argue when you could take this time to share the gospel?"
=====
Ahem!?!?
And what are you doing?
Can anyone say Hypocrisy?!?!
There are among the many, two commands to be noted:
1. Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
2. Contend earnestly for the faith
NOW...which one is THIS blog dedicated to? Hmm!!
I ain't rocket science!
May 09, 2005 8:49 AM
Both Pagans and Jews (in the temple service) were noted for the use of many types of mechanical instruments.
It is not the lack of access or affordability which explains the abscence of instruments in Christian worship.
One significant element is the amazing difference in how one approaches worship.
The pagans were into what every was pleasing to them. It was all sensual. This is why many of the pagan cults imbibed in alcohol as sex.
The Jewish worship was also very sensory appealing. Big ornate temple. Priests in their distintive attire. The smell of fresh roasting meat (Bar-b-que anyone?). Organized singers. Organized musicians.
It was all a big production and amazing to behold. The problem is that it was external things trying to get in.
We are to move the opposite direction. Worship is to come from within and express itself in approved ways.
NT worship is not dependent upon ornamentation and professionalism or location and lighting.
Since there is no NT statement, example, or implication to authorize instruments; then one must add them strictly upon personal preference. To do so is to revert backwards to either Judaism or paganism. The excuse "Well, I like it" is itself proof.
Interestingly, Alexander Campbell once noted that instruments in Christian worship is about as appropriate as "a cowbell in a concert". Of course he was referring to a concert of more classical style, not a ho-down in the barn yard.
May 09, 2005 9:14 AM
What a topic to argue about. When i worship or praise God is for God and not for men. This is between God and i and only He can judge the sincerity of my heart and know if is coming from my heart or not. I can use an instrument if i want to for the glory of God. He made me free. Have any one read Psalm 33. I do not play any instrument but i wish i did. I can also praise and sing without music. When are we going to stop trowing "stones" at each other because we think that our interpretation of the word is the only correct way.He set me free to praise and make music any way my spirit see fit. Check 2 corinthian, chapter 3, verse 6.
October 25, 2005 9:57 AM
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