The Christian and Law
Christians and Law
What does the Bible tell Christians today about Law? Are we as Christians under Law? If we are, what is that Law? Or, as Christians, do we enjoy freedom in Christ Jesus? Many people today are confused about Law and the Christian. This post will take a look at Law, if Christians are subject to any form of Law, and if Christians have a code of Law that must be followed.
God has at all times issued Law for his creation to follow and observe. God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah “O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Jeremiah 10:23. Men and women cannot know the path to righteousness with God unless God tells them the way. We, as God’s creation, are helpless without Law issued from God. As we read the Bible we see various forms of Law that God has issued to his creation. From the beginning of time, in the Garden of Eden, humankind has received Law from God. God gave the very first Law to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:16-17: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This Law was not only the first Law given to humanity, it was also the first law ever broken by humankind.
Reading the Old Testament reveals that God had two forms of law before Christ came to the earth. These two forms of Law are known as the Law of the Patriarchs and the Law of Moses. Information on the Law of the Patriarchs is very limited in the Holy Scriptures. This law is outlined throughout the Old Testament and all Gentile humans were subject to that law. In Genesis 4:3-7 the account of Cain and Abel’s sacrifices are recorded for our learning. We see from this reading that Cain and Abel were under some form of Law from God. Cain’s sacrifice, which was offered unto God not in accordance with God’s law, was rejected. Abel’s offering, which was offered unto God in accordance with God’s law, was accepted. Why would God reject one offering and accept another if He had not given law to humanity to observe?
The Law of the Patriarchs also had a priesthood that offered unto God sacrifices. Melchizedek is called a High Priest unto God. In Genesis 14:18-20 the Bible reads “Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth: and blessed be God Most High, who hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him a tenth of all.” It is important to notice that God had High Priests under this particular form of Law, the Patriarchal law. Knowing that the Law of Moses was not initiated until the book of Exodus, this Priesthood is different from the Priesthood of Moses’ Law. Christ our saviour is called a “Priest after the order of Melchizedek” five times in the New Testament. This is because Christ would not become a Priest after the order of Aaron, as the Law of Moses demanded, but a Priest after a completely different order. This also shows that Melchizedek was a Priest unto God in a very different way than those under Moses’ Law. Many different men in the Old Testament are referred to either as Priests unto God or as those authorized to offer sacrifices to God, in accordance with that Patriarchal Law. Examples of these men would be Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The next law in the Old Testament, and by far the most well known and understood of the two, is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was issued to only the Israelites and their descendants. Exodus 19:5-6 states “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Likewise the Bible also states in Exodus 24:3 “And Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which Jehovah hath spoken will we do.” Exodus 24:7 “And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that Jehovah hath spoken will we do, and be obedient.” God then commanded them to obey all his law and teach it to the next generation, which would do the same thing, until God determined when that law would be taken away (Exodus 12:26ff, Deuteronomy 11:19ff).
These two laws, the Law of the Patriarchs issued in the Garden of Eden, and the Law of Moses issued on Mount Sinai, ran together, keeping all humankind under law to God until Christ’s law came into affect. Romans 2:11-29 teaches that both Jew and Gentile were under Law to God. The Gentiles, who had not the law, did by nature the things contained in the Law of Moses, and were counted as faithful. Yet they died in sin outside of that law if their works were evil. Likewise the Jews, who had the Law of Moses, were counted as uncircumcised Gentiles when they refused to accept and be faithful to that Law. Therefore, whether under the Law of Moses as a Jew, or under the Law of the Patriarchs as a Gentile, only those that lived correctly under their Law were justified before God. If either Jew or Gentile lived outside of their respective law, they were lost in God’s sight.
This brings us at last to the Law of Christ. At the cross Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and did away with the ordinances contained therein. Paul states in Colossians 2:13-14 “And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross.” Clearly seen is the fact that the Law of Moses and the Law of the Patriarchs was done away with at the cross. Christ died, bringing a new law to humanity to live under. We see in the New Testament time and again the fact that the Old Law was done away with. However, it is this fact that has caused many people to misunderstand the system in which Christians now live unto God.
The simple truth of the matter is that the Old Law was done away, and therefore a new law must take its place. That new law is the Law of Christ. The New Testament, called such because of the New will for humankind compared to the Old will for humankind, states many times in many places that humans are now under Law to God through Jesus Christ. Many would claim today that Christians are not under Law, but under, and only under, Grace. What people fail to realize is that the New Testament never claims that Christians are not under Law. The New Testament simply states that Christians are no longer subject to the Law of Moses. When we read in the Bible that Law is done away with, it is always in reference to the Law of Moses. For example, we read in 2 Corinthians 3:6 “Who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” Many people leap to the conclusion that Christians are not under law, but under the spirit (grace). However, to read such into this passage is to completely divorce this verse from its context. This passage is dealing with the fact that the Law of Moses is what now brings death, and the Law of Christ is what brings life. Likewise, many people read Galatians 5:4 and come to the same understanding; there is no law.
Galatians 5:4 reads “You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Many people claim that we as Christians are not under law, and if we try to be, we fall from grace. This simply is not what this verse is saying, when read in its context. The first three verses read (Galatians 5:1-3) “Stand fast therefore in the freedom in which Christ has made us free, and do not be loaded down again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.” What law contained circumcision? The Law of Moses. In Acts 15:5 the Luke writes “But some of those from the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." Likewise, the phrase “yoke of bondage” refers to the Law of Moses, Acts 15:10 “Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Paul is claiming in Galatians that those who would be saved by added elements from Moses’ law into Christ’s law were ‘severed from Christ’. Why is the Law of Moses talked about in such a way? Why was it a law unto death? Why was it a yoke of bondage that no one (save Christ) could keep? Because it had a flaw. Hebrews 10:4 teaches us this flaw: "For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins." For 1500 years animal sacrifices were made under Moses' law. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of animals were slaughtered for the sins of the people, yet all this blood could not take away one small, tiny sin. Only Christ, in his death, through his blood, could take those sins, and all others, away.
Christianity is termed “Law” in many passages in the Bible. Christianity is called the “Law of the Spirit of life, God’s law, Law of Christ, a Law written on our hearts (not on tables of stone), a Perfect law, the law of liberty, a Royal law, and Christians are said to be under the law of Christ, which is a law of faith. (Romans 3:27, 8:2, 7-8, Gal.6:2, Heb. 10:15-16, James 1:25, 2:8-10, and I Cor. 9:21, for example). In any passages of scripture, if law is being talked about, and Law is being condemned, the context will tell the reader that it is the law of Moses, not Law in general. Because of the fact the all humanity is under law to God, we do have something required of us. The bibles teaches in Acts 10:35 “But in every nation, he that fears Him and works righteousness is acceptable to Him.” We are commanded to keep the Law, 1 John 5:2-3 “By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” We do have a written Law we must follow. It is the law contained in the New Testament. It is the “steps of faith” Rom. 4:12, it is keeping from sin Gal. 5:19ff, it is studying God’s word, II Tim. 2:15, it is growing according to God’s ways, II Peter 1:5-8, it is doing all things that have been commanded, John 14:15, 15:14.
Remember friends, without law, why was Christ put to death for our sins? Romans 4:15 teaches “for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.” We have law, and Christ died to give it to us.
What does the Bible tell Christians today about Law? Are we as Christians under Law? If we are, what is that Law? Or, as Christians, do we enjoy freedom in Christ Jesus? Many people today are confused about Law and the Christian. This post will take a look at Law, if Christians are subject to any form of Law, and if Christians have a code of Law that must be followed.
God has at all times issued Law for his creation to follow and observe. God tells us through the prophet Jeremiah “O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Jeremiah 10:23. Men and women cannot know the path to righteousness with God unless God tells them the way. We, as God’s creation, are helpless without Law issued from God. As we read the Bible we see various forms of Law that God has issued to his creation. From the beginning of time, in the Garden of Eden, humankind has received Law from God. God gave the very first Law to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:16-17: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." This Law was not only the first Law given to humanity, it was also the first law ever broken by humankind.
Reading the Old Testament reveals that God had two forms of law before Christ came to the earth. These two forms of Law are known as the Law of the Patriarchs and the Law of Moses. Information on the Law of the Patriarchs is very limited in the Holy Scriptures. This law is outlined throughout the Old Testament and all Gentile humans were subject to that law. In Genesis 4:3-7 the account of Cain and Abel’s sacrifices are recorded for our learning. We see from this reading that Cain and Abel were under some form of Law from God. Cain’s sacrifice, which was offered unto God not in accordance with God’s law, was rejected. Abel’s offering, which was offered unto God in accordance with God’s law, was accepted. Why would God reject one offering and accept another if He had not given law to humanity to observe?
The Law of the Patriarchs also had a priesthood that offered unto God sacrifices. Melchizedek is called a High Priest unto God. In Genesis 14:18-20 the Bible reads “Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth: and blessed be God Most High, who hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him a tenth of all.” It is important to notice that God had High Priests under this particular form of Law, the Patriarchal law. Knowing that the Law of Moses was not initiated until the book of Exodus, this Priesthood is different from the Priesthood of Moses’ Law. Christ our saviour is called a “Priest after the order of Melchizedek” five times in the New Testament. This is because Christ would not become a Priest after the order of Aaron, as the Law of Moses demanded, but a Priest after a completely different order. This also shows that Melchizedek was a Priest unto God in a very different way than those under Moses’ Law. Many different men in the Old Testament are referred to either as Priests unto God or as those authorized to offer sacrifices to God, in accordance with that Patriarchal Law. Examples of these men would be Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The next law in the Old Testament, and by far the most well known and understood of the two, is the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was issued to only the Israelites and their descendants. Exodus 19:5-6 states “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Likewise the Bible also states in Exodus 24:3 “And Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which Jehovah hath spoken will we do.” Exodus 24:7 “And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that Jehovah hath spoken will we do, and be obedient.” God then commanded them to obey all his law and teach it to the next generation, which would do the same thing, until God determined when that law would be taken away (Exodus 12:26ff, Deuteronomy 11:19ff).
These two laws, the Law of the Patriarchs issued in the Garden of Eden, and the Law of Moses issued on Mount Sinai, ran together, keeping all humankind under law to God until Christ’s law came into affect. Romans 2:11-29 teaches that both Jew and Gentile were under Law to God. The Gentiles, who had not the law, did by nature the things contained in the Law of Moses, and were counted as faithful. Yet they died in sin outside of that law if their works were evil. Likewise the Jews, who had the Law of Moses, were counted as uncircumcised Gentiles when they refused to accept and be faithful to that Law. Therefore, whether under the Law of Moses as a Jew, or under the Law of the Patriarchs as a Gentile, only those that lived correctly under their Law were justified before God. If either Jew or Gentile lived outside of their respective law, they were lost in God’s sight.
This brings us at last to the Law of Christ. At the cross Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and did away with the ordinances contained therein. Paul states in Colossians 2:13-14 “And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross.” Clearly seen is the fact that the Law of Moses and the Law of the Patriarchs was done away with at the cross. Christ died, bringing a new law to humanity to live under. We see in the New Testament time and again the fact that the Old Law was done away with. However, it is this fact that has caused many people to misunderstand the system in which Christians now live unto God.
The simple truth of the matter is that the Old Law was done away, and therefore a new law must take its place. That new law is the Law of Christ. The New Testament, called such because of the New will for humankind compared to the Old will for humankind, states many times in many places that humans are now under Law to God through Jesus Christ. Many would claim today that Christians are not under Law, but under, and only under, Grace. What people fail to realize is that the New Testament never claims that Christians are not under Law. The New Testament simply states that Christians are no longer subject to the Law of Moses. When we read in the Bible that Law is done away with, it is always in reference to the Law of Moses. For example, we read in 2 Corinthians 3:6 “Who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” Many people leap to the conclusion that Christians are not under law, but under the spirit (grace). However, to read such into this passage is to completely divorce this verse from its context. This passage is dealing with the fact that the Law of Moses is what now brings death, and the Law of Christ is what brings life. Likewise, many people read Galatians 5:4 and come to the same understanding; there is no law.
Galatians 5:4 reads “You have become estranged from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Many people claim that we as Christians are not under law, and if we try to be, we fall from grace. This simply is not what this verse is saying, when read in its context. The first three verses read (Galatians 5:1-3) “Stand fast therefore in the freedom in which Christ has made us free, and do not be loaded down again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.” What law contained circumcision? The Law of Moses. In Acts 15:5 the Luke writes “But some of those from the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." Likewise, the phrase “yoke of bondage” refers to the Law of Moses, Acts 15:10 “Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Paul is claiming in Galatians that those who would be saved by added elements from Moses’ law into Christ’s law were ‘severed from Christ’. Why is the Law of Moses talked about in such a way? Why was it a law unto death? Why was it a yoke of bondage that no one (save Christ) could keep? Because it had a flaw. Hebrews 10:4 teaches us this flaw: "For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins." For 1500 years animal sacrifices were made under Moses' law. Hundreds of thousands, millions, of animals were slaughtered for the sins of the people, yet all this blood could not take away one small, tiny sin. Only Christ, in his death, through his blood, could take those sins, and all others, away.
Christianity is termed “Law” in many passages in the Bible. Christianity is called the “Law of the Spirit of life, God’s law, Law of Christ, a Law written on our hearts (not on tables of stone), a Perfect law, the law of liberty, a Royal law, and Christians are said to be under the law of Christ, which is a law of faith. (Romans 3:27, 8:2, 7-8, Gal.6:2, Heb. 10:15-16, James 1:25, 2:8-10, and I Cor. 9:21, for example). In any passages of scripture, if law is being talked about, and Law is being condemned, the context will tell the reader that it is the law of Moses, not Law in general. Because of the fact the all humanity is under law to God, we do have something required of us. The bibles teaches in Acts 10:35 “But in every nation, he that fears Him and works righteousness is acceptable to Him.” We are commanded to keep the Law, 1 John 5:2-3 “By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” We do have a written Law we must follow. It is the law contained in the New Testament. It is the “steps of faith” Rom. 4:12, it is keeping from sin Gal. 5:19ff, it is studying God’s word, II Tim. 2:15, it is growing according to God’s ways, II Peter 1:5-8, it is doing all things that have been commanded, John 14:15, 15:14.
Remember friends, without law, why was Christ put to death for our sins? Romans 4:15 teaches “for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.” We have law, and Christ died to give it to us.
posted by Joshua Haley at Saturday, May 07, 2005
49 Comments:
Outstanding. Too bad people will be offended at telling the truth. Well done.
May 07, 2005 6:36 PM
I just read your first post, and found your wording in glaring contradiction to some criticisms you posted on Curt's blog.
In (comment #5), you criticize the TNIV because it seems to teach that God gives us faith, and you say,
"Is faith the gift from God? Do we need to ‘study to show ourselves approved’? Is salvation God’s gift? Would some lost soul think from this passage that God will give him or her faith? How does faith come?"
But in your first post on your blog, you write that the purpose of your blog is to
"earnestly contend for the faith that God has given to us."
If some lost soul stumbled across your blog, would they think that God will "give him or her faith?"
May 07, 2005 11:37 PM
My Blog name comes from Jude 3:
"Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints."
God did deliver the system of faith, but we are the ones that must diligently seek it out. Romans 10:17 tells us were to find it.
Thanks for the question. It is one that many people misunderstand. I hope you now see the difference.
May 08, 2005 6:09 AM
So then why is the TNIV wrong for using that wording, which is identical to yours?
May 08, 2005 12:23 PM
The Faith, According to Jude 3, is the system of faith that God delivered unto us throught the inspired Apostles and the Teachings of Christ.
Our personal faith is based upon hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17. It is something that we must obtain for ourselves. It is the foundation of all our beliefs, II Peter 1:5-8. Without it, God Cannot be pleased, Hebrews 11:6.
The TNIV, in Ephesians 2:8 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and THIS is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
The TNIV falsely translates this verse to say that our personal faith is a gift from God. This is contrary to the scriptures. It is contrary to the Greek language as well. The gender of the words demand that the gift from God is salvation, Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I hope this helps answer your question.
May 08, 2005 4:40 PM
The TNIV is a watered down altered paraphrase of the Bible. I don't trust it.
Go with the NASB or NKJV.
May 08, 2005 7:34 PM
Josh,
I'd love to see a topic posted regarding what is acceptable worship.
May 08, 2005 7:38 PM
acceptable worship is worship from the heart. A kindergartener understands this and yet grown men who have made the church of christ into a denomination full of laws dont understand this.
May 08, 2005 8:54 PM
So if I sacrifice a human as worship to God it is OK as long as my heart is right?
May 08, 2005 9:54 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA....HOW DARE YOU EVEN THINK TO BRINGING MURDER INTO THIS DISCUSSION. that is maybe the funniest thing i have ever seen. and yet sad to think that people will go that far to uphold the manmade laws and traditions that prevent some from coming closer to God.
May 08, 2005 10:38 PM
I borrowed this piece that I wrote on Scott's blog:
======================
IS IT REALLY JUST A MATTER OF THE HEART?
Many seem to be unaware of the inherent problems of subjectivism. No one is free to decide right and wrong for himself morally or doctrinally.
We must have an objective standard to guide our lives in all matters.
Consider the following Bible statements about the heart:
Numbers 15:37-40
Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which YOUR OWN HEART and YOUR OWN EYES ARE INCLINED, and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that SEEMS RIGHT to a man, But its end is the way of death. (also Proverbs 16:25)
Proverbs 28:26
He who TRUSTS IN HIS OWN HEART is a FOOL, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 17:9
The HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?
We cannot trust our heart...our feelings...our preferences. We must not be subjective...we must be object. God has given us His standard.
May 09, 2005 8:35 AM
Worship is a verb.
A verb is a term of action. There are certain actions authorized by God to be directed to Him as expressions of worship.
This distinction alone is sufficient to show that all of life is not worship. Our lives determine in part whether we are fit (ie, true) worshippers. But is it both the proper actions with the proper attitude (ie, the heart).
During the time when Abraham was to offer up Isaac he told his servants to wait with the pack animals. He told them that he and the boy would go worship and then come back.
This shows that all the actions up to and following after that point were not themselves worship.
It was the specific God ordained act of offering which constituted the element of worship.
All worship is service to God.
But not all service is worship.
May 09, 2005 8:40 AM
what version are you quoting in your comments?
May 09, 2005 10:22 AM
johnny hinton,
Why do you chose to ignore heb. 12:1?
May 09, 2005 12:00 PM
What does Hebrews 12:1 say that Johnny has ignored? Can't figure that one out.
May 09, 2005 2:08 PM
sorry, ROM. 12:1. I wrote down the wrong book. my mistake.
May 09, 2005 2:56 PM
Romans 12:1 is a passage under dispute concerning the proper translation and the notion of "all of life is worship".
The very doctrine itself leads to some crude absurdities. Is time on the toilet eliminating waste an avenue of worship to you? What proves too much, proves nothing.
Romans 12:1 (NKJV)
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."
KJV -- reasonable service
ASV -- spiritual service
NASB -- spiritual* service of worship [*ft. rational]
RSV -- spiritual worship
NRSV -- spiritual* worship [*ft. reasonable]
What most fail to grasp is that this text is not isolated...it has a context. Notice that it uses the term bodies in the plural but uses sacrifice in the singular. In verse 3 we then see the issue of "gifts" and in verses 4-5 the one body of the church. Then verses 6-8 talks about prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, and mercy.
A parallel to this is found in 1 Cor. 12. It speaks of these gifts as being for the edification of the body.
One must conclude that this is not talking about one's individual life as worship. But if it is talking about worship it is talking about it in the context of the church and the use of gifts. Incidently, spiritual gifts have passed away as well.
May 09, 2005 4:09 PM
The New Testament is not a 'legal' document like the Pentateuch. The New Testament begins with the Gospel in which we are shown the life, teaching, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Acts shows us the birth, growth, and expansion of the church throughout the Roman world. The epsistles address congregational issues and teach us about what God is doing in the world, as well as teaches us how to live as Christians. The book of Revelation encourages us to remain faithful no matter the circumstances we face in an unbelieving world. To narrowly interpret the New Testament as a book of laws is to miss much of the theological depth and beauty of the collection of Christian writings.
May 09, 2005 4:49 PM
If the epistles teach us how to live as christians and we violate the "how to live" are we sinning?
May 09, 2005 5:02 PM
If the new testament contains no law how can we sin under the new testament??
May 09, 2005 5:04 PM
I did not say it did not contain commands, but it is not meant to be views solely as a legal document: a list of do's and don'ts. It is so much more than that and those who only view it as a legal document are the ones who lose because they will never reach the depths of the theology of the New Testament.
May 09, 2005 5:16 PM
i think that what james was saying is that there is no physical law such as the ten commandments or the Pentateuch. Jesus talks about what is sin many times in the gospels. He mentions such things as murder, lieing, adultery, i dont need to list them all...what we as christians need to do is leave the decisions on sin up to God. James is right, he is the only one who knows our heart, faith, intentions and actions. when we try to say well you are sinning in such areas where there is no command in the bible, or specific teaching, and something that is just not blatantly wrong or against the law of the land, you are attempting to play God.
May 09, 2005 5:18 PM
Jesus' message in the NT is to go beyond mere laws. What I mean by that is: think about the OT command to commit adultry. What does Jesus say about this? Whoever lusts at another has already committed adultry in his heart. Jesus took it a step forward.
May 10, 2005 9:19 AM
which circles right back to the exact argument myself and james are making in saying that God is the one who knows the heart and the focus in the NT is on the heart rather then some written law.
May 10, 2005 10:26 AM
I never heard anyone say that the New Testament was SOLELY LAW. Some of you insist that we don't worship with our hearts because we believe one must obey. Those are very judgemental assertions. I would much rather obey with all my heart than to disobey with all my heart.
May 10, 2005 2:27 PM
John Bellah said,
"Galatians 5 is talking about THE law and not law in general. The New Testament is as much of a law as the Old. Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. To say there is no law is to say there is no sin, then you have abolished the need for Christ."
You made the claim yourself on the earlier post.
May 10, 2005 2:32 PM
Did any of that say it was JUST LAW???? NO I DIDN'T... But to say it is not law at all is wrong. Nice try James but now you are trying to put words in my mouth.
May 10, 2005 2:36 PM
Time and time again people on this blog and Scott's blog have said we are under the new law which they claim is the NT. This is a faulty view of the NT because the new law is the law of Christ and it is not written on papyrus or tablets but on the hearts and minds of His people. The NT is not a codified document of law like the OT was.
May 10, 2005 2:46 PM
Who are you to say our view is faulty?
May 10, 2005 2:48 PM
The law of Christ is the true manifestation of the Law of Moses. No longer do we have to have a text telling us what is right and wrong because the Holy Spirit informs our conscience about what is right and wrong. I do not need someone to tell me it is wrong to steal, or murder, etc. because I know in my mind and my heart that those things are sinful.
Show me where in the NT it says that all of the documents contained in the NT are the new law.
May 10, 2005 2:50 PM
John,
Did I strike a nerve or something? I have been involved in these discussions since they began on Curt Niccum's blog and have been told numerous times that I am wrong, sinful, not really a Christian, etc. by those on your side. I have listened to your opinions and interpretations of Scripture and used them to grow and never once have I asked the question that you asked me just now. It is human nature to want to construct systems of rules and regulations and laws to dictate how we live. All I am saying is that is not the intent of the NT.
May 10, 2005 2:56 PM
The New Testament teaches us about Jesus, it teaches us about the birth of the church, it addresses issues that early congregations faced. The New Testament also teaches us how to live as Christians in the body and the world. Yes, there are commands and examples. Many of which we do not follow today because we have deemed them as 'cultural' or whatever reason we give to not follow them. If the NT is law then we must obey every command and example given regardless of cultural or time differences. Because in the OT if one transgressed even the smallest command then one was guilty of transgressing the whole law. If the NT is law then we are all guilty of transgressing it becuase we do not obey every command given to us in it.
May 10, 2005 3:10 PM
James, my point is.. you have called our view faulty at the same time saying the law is written on your heart. Why is the law written on my heart different? Did Christ write lawS on our heartS??? You have asserted that Christ law is written ONLY on our hearts and that the Holy Spirit uses our conscience as our guide. My conscience is different than yours, did the Holy Spirit do that??? How do we know which one is right if it is so subjective? If it is subjective then who are you to say mine is wrong... see my point??
May 10, 2005 3:39 PM
I don't. i dont see your point at all. Great comments James. I am in total agreement. John again thank you for your thoughts and making me read more into the bible and study.
May 10, 2005 6:10 PM
In the New Testament one must understand that platonism was the dominant worldview. Therefore, the Law of Moses is viewed as a copy or shadow of the real law i.e. the law of Christ. None of the Law of Moses was abolished in Christ but was fulfilled in Christ. Therefore we as baptized believers in Jesus Christ have the true law written on our hearts and minds. When we sin our (the believer's) conscience convicts us of that sin through the Holy Spirit. Unlike those under the old law we no longer have to offer a sacrifice for our sin because Christ died once for all. If the NT is a new Law then what means do we have for atonement if we transgress the new law? Is Christ sacrificed over and over again until we get it right. Do you see what I am saying?
If someone tells me that God convicted their heart in a way that is contrary to Scripture then I would question whether it is really God directing them. An example would be if someone told me that God told them it was okay to cheat on his wife. You and I both know that the person's claim is contrary to the teaching of Scripture and is in fact sin. All
May 10, 2005 6:27 PM
Why would God need something in addition to scripture to tell me something is wrong?
May 11, 2005 3:09 PM
James,
Please give sources of authority for the assertion that platonism was the dominant worldview.
Please explain how this supposedly affected the way God inspired the text of the NT to be written.
Type and shadow were a part of OT prophecy long before Plato ever lived.
Also the concept of platonism which requires apprehension by reminiscience is clearly a false doctrine. We have not lived before (ie, reincarnation).
Also,
Could you please give scripture for your assertion that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin through our conscience? Since the conscience is a part of all mankind's design, how do you explain it convicting an unbeliever for doing what he believes is wrong? Surely you don't suggest that the Holy Spirit operates directly upon the conscience of the unbeliever!
May 11, 2005 4:34 PM
Read what I said again! I said the Holy Spirit convicts the conscience of the believer. Second, if you do not think that Paul uses the platonic worldview in his discussions then you need to read more scholarly works about Paul and His theology. Paul was influenced by the world he lived in and one of those influences was platonism, as well as apocalypticism. Paul frequently contrasts the flesh and the spirit, the old age and the new age, the old law and the new law, etc. which are hallmarks of platonism. To say that Paul lived and wrote completely isolated from the world he lived in is inaccurate at the least. Paul Christianized these distinct worldviews but still shows that he was influenced by them.
May 11, 2005 5:34 PM
James wrote:
"I said the Holy Spirit convicts the conscience of the believer."
-----------------
I know what you wrote the first time. But you failed to answer the inquiry. "Could you please give scripture for your assertion..."
===
I still call into question the assertion of the "dominant worldview" being platonism.
Even the definition of platonism calls into question the notion that it had a significant affect in the scriptures.
PLATONISM: the philosophy of Plato stressing especially that actual things are copies of transcendent ideas and that these ideas are the objects of true knowledge apprehended by reminiscence.
REMINISCENCE: apprehension of a Platonic idea as if it had been known in a previous existence.
This concept of previous existence is false.
One of the outstanding thinkers of Middle Platonism was Philo Judeaus (Philo the Jew) who synthesized Plato's philosophy with Jewish scripture largely through allegorical interpretation of the later. Philo the Jew was born c. 25 B.C., in Alexandria. He is the chief representative of Greco-Judaic philosophy. But his philosophical impact (during the Middle Platonism period) was late first into second century AD, which makes it a bit late.
Interestingly the Apostles never used the allegorical method. Hmmm. And Paul mentioned the fact that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews. This indicates that he was raised in a family that held tightly to purist forms of Judaism from language to culture to understanding the scriptures. This is precisely why Paul was such a prize to the cause of the faith.
James you further wrote:
"Paul frequently contrasts the flesh and the spirit, the old age and the new age, the old law and the new law, etc. which are hallmarks of platonism."
Just exactly HOW are these contrasts hallmarks of platonism? These types of contrasts even begin with the OT long before Plato who lived during the silent years between the testaments. Jeremiah gave us the beginning of contrast between the old and new covenants.
By the way, Platonic epistemology (innate knowledge) is seriously flawed with regard to HOW one knows as revealed in the Scriptures especially in regard to issues of doctrinal and moral absolutes.
FINAL WORD:
I think I will allow Paul's inspired words to give me my theology more than some denominationalist who cannot even figure out the plan of salvation.
Don't be condescending because you think you are being superiorly educated. You are not dealing with mere neophytes, or uneducated backwood hill-billies.
May 12, 2005 1:34 PM
I dealt with the issue of paltonism and its influence in the 1st century in a school affiliated with the church of Christ by men who have forgotten more than most of us will ever know. So take your own advice and do not be condescending.
In the first century there were many philosophies that had influence in the world. Middle platonism was one of those philosophies. Maybe I overstated its dominance but nevertheless when one understands middle platonism and looks at Paul's letters one can see the influence. Again I say that Paul was not isolated from the world he lived in and should not be viewed that way. You do not think that platonism influenced the biblical writers, okay but read Hebrews again.
Furthermore, I never said Paul used platonism. I said he showed that he was influenced by it or at least knew his readers were influenced by it.
Finally, Beleive, Confess, Repent, Be baptized, live the Christian life. Many people outside of the cofc know the plan of salvation and are obedient to God. Be very careful about judging whole groups of people. It is not your job.
May 12, 2005 1:46 PM
Before this discussion digresses any farther into personal attacks and/or character assassinations I must graciously bow out of the fray.
May 12, 2005 2:19 PM
James thank you for your comments. You are very knowlegeable and i have agreed with most everything you have said. Growing up i was always told that the cofc was not a denomination. However, as i grew older and experienced more, i found that the cofc was just as much of a denomination as any of the other so called denominations. It is a shame to say the least. Now, in every bible paper i submit i freely use the word denomination in correlation with the church of christ. i know this has nothing to do with the discussion but i find it funny when someone seperates the thought of a denomination and the church of christ
May 12, 2005 6:13 PM
I must say I agree with you, James, as well, especially about your point concerning not judging whole groups of people. Now there is a salvation issue! Judging is not mentioned as a salvation issue, but it most certainly is. It would be unfortunate to come before God, and have Him judge us for each sin or shortcoming we have committed, just as some people in the Church of Christ do with people of other denominations.
May 12, 2005 9:40 PM
Also, judging is thoroughly warned against several times in the NT.
May 12, 2005 9:41 PM
In Matt. 7:15-16 Jesus states,
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."
Jesus tells us that we are to be on the look out for false prophets and the way we know them is "by their fruits." We can look at the fruits of a person and know whether or not they are going to do harm to the body of Christ.
In Ephesians 5:19 Paul commands,
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them."
We as Christians are not given a choice. We are to "expose" the "unfruitful works of darkness." There is no middle ground. Either one is exposing the "unfruitful works of darkness" or they are not. If you refuse then you are not doing what God would have you to do.
Many times in these discussions on all three blogs people have been accussed of judging when they have not judged.
Acts 13:46 states,
"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, 'It was necessary that the Word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold we turn to the Gentiles'"
If a person explains the Word of God to another person and that person gets upset and rejects it then the person presenting the Word of God has not judged that person but they have judged themselves.
We will all one day be judged by what is in the Bible (John 12:48).
May 13, 2005 8:07 AM
Don't you know that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe in Jesus. We are all led by the Holy Spirit and therefore we shouldn't judge each other.
May 14, 2005 8:16 PM
saved4ever makes an interesting comment as follows: "...it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe in Jesus. We are all led by the Holy Spirit and therefore shouldn't judge each other."
Did you know that, "the devils also believe and tremble?" (Jas. 2:19).
If I believe it is fine to live in a state of adultery, does that matter so long as I just believe in Jesus?
What is your definition of believing in Jesus? Does that include believing what Jesus taught, or just giving mental assent to the fact that He is God's Son?
And, finally, if, "We are all led by the Holy Spirit," why is there diasgreement in spiritual matters? Is the Holy Spirit confused?
May 15, 2005 5:22 AM
"...the depths of the theology of the New Testament"
-----------------
-ology: from logos
While logos can be translated "word" it is much more than merely a term. Logos refers to the collected thoughts on a given subject.
An essential element to sound logic is that the conclusion must be warranted by the evidence. Evidence must be thorough, preferably exhaustive, but at least representative.
Theology therefore, is the collected thoughts (from scripture) about God (Gk: theos)
The term theology is often used for a whole category of study.
Systematic Theology is divided into several parts:
Theology: the collected thoughts on God
Christology: the collected thoughts on Christ
Pneumatology: the collected thoughts on the Holy Spirit
Angelolgoy: the collected thoughts on angels, demons, and Satan
Ecclesiology: the collected thoughts on the church...organization, work, worship, etc.
Eschatology: the collected thoughts on last things...death, hades, judgment, heaven, hell...
Soteriology: the collected thoughts on salvation
Hamartiology: the collected thoughts on sin
Anthropology: the collected thoughts on man
Bibliology: the collected thoughts on the scriptures
The only single volume by a single author in churches of Christ on systematic theology is:
Fundamentals of the Faith
by Rex Turner Sr.
Chancellor, Southern Christian University
Most if not all volumes on Systematic Theology on the general market are Calvinistic
May 16, 2005 9:28 AM
It's okay to "expose the unfruitful works of darkness" like Scott points out earlier. Where you go wrong is when you JUDGE their hearts. When you make assumptions based on what you heard or what you have thought a body of believers actually believes when you in fact have no idea what they believe in their hearts. Let's ALWAYS be careful to judge. There are other ways to show disagreements with other people or denominations besides tearing them down and yes, even judging them.
May 16, 2005 11:25 PM
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